Newbie's Model 19 journey begins

[chris c]

Hello to all,

I've inherited a beautiful pair of 19s from the original owner. Finally, after a few years in storage, I'm ready to start building a system around/for these babies. They have never been touched or tampered with (the paper tangerine tags are still hanging from the crossovers) I do not know the model year. The serial #s are around 044xx and 050xx (not in front of them now) with a mirror I've noted that they have the original 416-8Bs. Also, I have not listened to these since the early 90s. I have no idea of what to expect from them...

First things first:

1. The horns don't work. I've read that it's no surprise that the diaphragms will need attention/replacement.

2. There seems to be much debate on crossover modification. Is this a must do? or a down-the-road item?

3. HERE's THE BIGGIE. I currently have a borrowed low-end SS system to put in front of them. I'm just beginning the tube amp educational process. This already feels like the first step of a lifetime addiction. And, I understand that personal preference is all important.

I have admired these 19s for years and have great sentimental attachment to them.

Any assistance or opinions would be greatly appreciated. I am putty in your hands.

thanks,
Chris - New Orleans

[bowtie427ss]

1. The horns don't work. I've read that it's no surprise that the diaphragms will need attention/replacement.

Clean/replace the L-pads, and do the ground by-pass mod on the XO's. Dead HF can be a result of dirty/crusty connections and L-pads. No guarantee it'll fix the HF, but these steps are necessary to ensure fault free operation anyway.

2nd thing to do is a visual inspection of the lead in conductors on the diaphragms, they have a tendancy to fatigue and break, there are a few skilled hands, and some reading out there that can help with repairing those in some cases.

2. There seems to be much debate on crossover modification. Is this a must do? or a down-the-road item?

You must verify that the capacitors have not drifted dangerously out of spec. Most folks will simply opt to replace them as a matter of course.

Once you verify proper operation of what you have, i think this has to be weighed on an individual and personal basis. For one fella, he might be perfectly happy with a proper working stock network, and for the next guy a modded network might make the day and night difference that he bases his decision to "keep them" on.

FWIW, a dedicated thread has been started at Audiokarma specifically dealing with the "Z19" XO....................... information is freely dispensed on multiple forums, i recommend reading up before making irreversible changes of any kind.

I would also recommend rotating those 416-8B's 180 degrees ASAP if you plan on using them in their original form, and then every 6 to 12 months rotate them 90 degrees. This isn't a fool proof practice, but it can go a long way to keep the suspension and cone from sagging to the point of necessitating a re-cone.

IMO, you own a pair of some of the finest loudspeakers ever made for the home. They are not new by any stretch and will likely need some degree of service to put them back into their full glory. They are worth your time and money to properly restore, preserve, and enjoy for a long time to come.

Just my .02.............................

[SOOTSHE]

Yes, it is a fascinating journey that you begin & one that will give you much pleasure.
I agree with Bowties comments & his sentiments regarding the sound of the model 19.
I also believe it is one of the best "out of the box" speakers ever produced for the home.

Some of the mods I did that greatly improved the sound....considering these speakers are 30 odd years old.

1. Dampen the horns with sand & paint.
2. Repace caps with new Solens to original values.
3. Bypass ground lugs on crossover board.
4. Bypass L pads with fixed resistors - 10ohm for the mid range & 3 ohm for the top end. (You can adjust for personal preference & room acoustics if these values don't sound balanced to you).
5. Replace foam surrounds around horn if they have deteriorated.

With regard to the crossover mods, you should be able to do this so that the crossover can be returned to stock if you so desire.

You'll find, like I have, that the members here are extremely giving of the experience they have & very happy to share knowledge. Something that has helped many of us enjoy our speakers even more

All the best,
John

[ZilchLab]

FWIW, a dedicated thread has been started at Audiokarma specifically dealing with the "Z19" XO....................... information is freely dispensed on multiple forums, i recommend reading up before making irreversible changes of any kind.

Z19 link (AK Search won't find it):

[ame="http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=328530"]Z19 Crossover - AudioKarma.org Home Audio Stereo Discussion Forums[/ame]

[bowtie427ss]

Many thanks for posting Zilch. I didn't realize the search function would miss it.

[Altec Best]

Or if you don't feel that adventurous you can still upgrade the original.The Z19 wasn't available when I upgraded mine.

But here are a few pictures for you Chris.It has all the upgrades that Bowtie mentioned and they are worth the effort !!!!!!

I also included the foams too, they look great as originals did.If your interested in the foams there is a fellow in NC that makes them Paul Darst. If you want the email address I'll send it through PM's

BTW: These aren't my original crossovers though.I bought a donor pair of M19 crossovers on eBay to do the upgrades on actually 2 pair as I was trying different capacitors (Solens,Dayton's,& Sonicaps) and settled on the Solens.And Packed away originals for safe keeping.

Addendum: In the first picture there is a ground wire that connects both bus bars.It goes from the top right Ground lug to the bottom right follow the yellow wire and you will see it right underneath it.Starts and ends at the blue arrows.

[johnsonad]

Congrats and enjoy! It will be well worth the effort. I'm in the process of building a pair of external crossovers leaving the originals in place. The values in mine are off by as much as 50% for capacitors and inductors. Though way off, they still sound great to me. If you want to build on a donor set of crossovers and leave yours original, send me a PM. You will not find better support than the people on this forum. Keep us up to date and enjoy the process!

[DNV47]

I once replaced the alleged 2.7 mh woofer inductors in both of my 19's with ones having less resistance thinking they were "better" and I didn't get the same tonal balance I previously had and the 19's became annoying to listen to.
After trying this and that to no avail I finally put the original inductors back in and was instantly happy again.
This got me wondering if maybe the popular and most often seen schematic for the 19 xovers may be theory and not practice.
If I remember correctly, my large inductors measured around 2.43 mh and I see in a pic posted here, values that also don't agree with the schematic, if the numbers on the inductors are actual measured values on those inductors.
I haven't yet seen a thread where numerous people have measured their 19 xover inductors to see what the end result is nor have I ever seen a post that tells what value chokes Iconic uses in there new xovers.
Does anyone have any insight on this?

[Altec Best]

Those inductors were measured out of the circuit.Altec used a standard 20% tolerance so they can measure all over the place from crossover to crossover.

As far as inductors go they very rarely go bad and advise to leave them in.As you have found out that placing your old Altec inductors back in brought the sound back to your 19's .Proof's in the Pudding.

Crossover upgrades on the 19 I would just change the Caps,Resistors,wire, and possibly L-pads, most of the time a good cleaning of the L-pad with De-Oxit is enough.You can always change out the L-pads with fixed resistors after you are dialed in.Mine work fine so I just set them and leave'm.

[DNV47]

I had the same thing happen with my Flamencos. When I got them I replaced the inductors and caps expecting to hear an improvement. NOT!
I ended up with new caps only because the new inductors screwed up the tonal balance.
That was before I had the capability of measuing inductance so I don't know how those inductors compared to the schematic values.
It just makes me wonder what people are listening to and seem to like when they go to all new 19 xovers with $$$$ schematic value inductors and $$$$$ caps.
I sent the 802's to GPA for remag and new frams because one fram was dented from someone soldering both snapped VC leads.
I never got to replacing the resistors but I did replace the caps, internal wiring, terminal posts and I cleaned the pots.
I stopped there because they are so listenable I have no urge to do more but sometimes if things don't sound quite right I massage the pots back and forth and maybe it's my imagination, but that clears it up so I do wonder about the pots but not enough to act on it so far. Someday. LOL